Shades (Canada; 1978)

By Ron G. And Max Mouse
When the Be Stiff 78 Tour hit New York's Bottom Line last December Mr. G. had the opportunity to talk with 'the Queen of Stiff' at the penthouse offices of A.R.S.E. Management on West 57, across from Carnegie Hall.

-RG: What would you like to mention regarding your mysterious background?
LL: Well I don't think we have to talk about anything, let's talk about the future.

-RG: What can you tell me about today, tomorrow, the new year; are you going home for Christmas?
LL: Yes I am, I was going to stay over here for a little while, but I have to get a new band. I don't really want to, but I must. My whole involvement with Stiff is really quite new, the whole thing of me being allowed to play my own music is quite new. The thing is, I knew these people, mainly the bass player and the drummer and the keyboard player, but they're in another band, you see, and I just borrowed them. I have to get a new band when I go back because they want to go back to doing their own thing.

-RG: What direction would you like to take things in?
LL: Basically, the same line-up, except maybe two keyboard players. I want to have straight forward keyboards, and I also want to have synthesizers. It's not always easy to find a player who wants to do both, or who is versatile enough to do both.

-RG: You co-operate with Les in your songwriting, what is his involvement in the writing?
LL: Mainly, the initial ideas come from me. I usually write the lyrics myself. Les is very good at putting things in sensible order, and once an idea is suggested he helps me to develop it, in a musical sense and arranging.

-RG: What process do you experience in composing a tune?
LL: I never set out to do it, because I don't think I could if I sat down to write. I have to have some inspiration, just an idea. Normally ideas just come out of the blue. Nothing that I do is related to a direct incident in my life, although it may have evolved that way through a long process. See, I may have had some experience, it goes through my mind and comes out again, so I never really name any names or state many facts, it's more of an emotional and atmospheric rather than factual type of music.

-RG: What brought about, or what is the connotation of 'Stateless'?
LL: It's not necessarily a political statement, but it's mainly categoryless, and bagless. It relates to a mental statelessness rather than a political statelessness.

-RG: How do you achieve the unique, eery, deep space dimension in your vocals?
LL: It goes back to the idea of creating an atmosphere really. The idea is that you don't have to say things in words to get the meaning across, you can often make a sound to create an atmosphere. I like to tell stories, but I need to have effects to create an atmosphere for the story. The only electronic effects I use is echo. That's all the electronic effects that I use, the rest is just my natural voice.

-RG: What about your saxophone?
LL: Well, I haven't been playing very long, by most musicians' standards, but, I'm not really a musican, I don't really like musicians.

-RG: What's a musician?
LL: Well, a person utterly preoccupied with music, usually on an intellectual level. I really perform intuitively all the time; I just rely on my feel about things. It doesn't mean I wouldn't like to know more about it; I mean, I would like to have more information, how to read music and things like that. At the moment I am able just to use it when I need it.

-RG: What inspires your saxophone playing?
LL: I think that it's one of the most sort of human type of instruments, it really becomes an extension of you. You stick it in your mouth. I mean, you really, like, plug into it, you know, physically. I don't know, I just have an affinity for it; everybody's got an affinity for some instrument. I did try to learn how to play the guitar, for a long time, and it was hard work; I never really enjoyed it much. And then I discovered the saxophone, and I found that I just related to it instantly.

-RG: Do you ever play your saxophone through any amplification?
LL: I did at one time, but then I started working with other horns. When I did that it was just very weird to have, like the sax going through an amplifier, and I was working with say a trombone player, and he was going straight through the PA. We never got really close as far as the sound went. My sound was just so much more alienated to his, so we could never really get together. So I stopped using the electronics, I much prefer not to use them because I think the sax has got a nice enough sound the way it is.

-RG: Do you play with your saxophone solo very often?
LL: It's very difficult, when you're up front telling a story, to go away for a second and play an instrument because it really feels to me like I'm doing that, like I'm breaking off from the story-telling and playing an instrument. I haven't really felt comfortable playing a lot of sax. I feel as though the story is suffering.

-RG: What is your life other than this particular Route '78 Tour?
LL: This has been a really big part of my life, especially for the last six months or so. When I really just started writing songs with myself in mind, about six months ago. Really, for the last six months or so it's been my total preoccupation, writing songs, practicing, finding musicians and rehearsing; making records.

-RG: Are you constantly renewed, having vitality brought into your music through these rapid-paced Stiff tours; different cities, venues, countries? Or do you feel that at this point you have already created a satchel of stories which you are in the process of delivering and honing?
LL: Ya, it's perhaps more the thing you were just talking about, although I never get bored with what I'm doing and in fact I do like to think that things are delevoping as I'm performing. Every time I do a performance, I feel like the audience is different, and I just feel like it's a different event. As far as the initial idea, I don't have very many initial ideas or impulses. Not a lot really; and if I do, I don't have much time to do anything about them. So what I think will happen is when I get back home things'll come back to me. Now I'm just sort of relating and changing to my experiences, y'know? There is a little bit of creation going on there; initial ideas are not, really. My brain is just storing them up. They're on the back shelves of the library. Other things are more up front and more important to me at the moment.

-RG: Your single is "I Think We're Alone Now". How is that doing?
LL: From what I hear going around to the record stores that sell Stiff records, it's doing very well.

-RG: Are there any other blasts from the past which speak to you that we may hear from you?
LL: Probably not. I like that song a lot, but I don't think I'll be looking for old songs to do. I'm really excited about doing new things.

-RG: By new things do you mean your own material, or interpretation of other writers?
LL: I'm concentrating my efforts on creating songs myself, but I really do enjoy hearing other people's songs today. Not necessarily with an ear for my own interpretation. I'm really no snob about doing other people's material or anything like that. I really like to hear other people's songs, it just depends whether I can find my way of doing them. If I could see my way of doing someone else's song, I'd like to do it.

-RG: What's been the high point of your involvement in the musical world to date? Are there plateaus or special moments that stand out?
LL: It's hard to say, really, I suppose the very first day that I signed up with Stiff. I just never thought that anybody would be interested in me. I never really thought I would get an opportunity like Stiff have given me.

-RG: How did you and Stiff manage to stumble upon each other?
LL: Well, it was via Charlie Gillett. He's a DJ in London, and he also writes books about popular music. It was through his show. I had been working on the continent, in Europe; I came back and I was really just looking for a job. Up till then I'd only been learning and using other people's bands to learn in, just playing.

At this point came a knock on the door, which I assumed to be the conclusion of our conversation, but instead, in came Max Mouse.

-RG: Lene, let me introduce Max Mouse.
LL: Hello, Max; or should I say Mr. Mouse?

-MM: No. Hello.

-RG: We were talking about backgrounds and projected futures.
LL: Ya, it was through Charlie. On his show he had a little spot where anybody could ring up; if you're looking for a band, or if you're a musician looking for a job, or a band looking for musicians you can ring up, say what you want. So I just rang up and said that I was a saxophone player looking for a band, and probably anyone listening to his show would like the sort of music I like... and ah, nobody rang up, nobody called at all, nobody rang. So I wrote Charlie a "stiff" letter and told him a bit more about me, gave him a bit more information. Then he called me up, he said he'd like to meet me because he was getting a band together for this other singer and maybe they could use some saxophone. And then I met Charlie, I was going to do some back-up singing for this other guy, and Charlie heard my voice. He seemed to have a lot of faith in what I was doing, and he asked did I write some songs. And I said I'd just started to write songs for me, y'know, and he heard them and he really liked them. Charlie used to manage a band called Kilburn and the High Roads, which, you probably know, was Ian Dury's old band, so he knows Dave Robinson, who runs Stiff Records in England, and so he said, "I think I know where you should be," and he took me to see Dave. We'd just done this demo of "I Think We're Alone Now", and Dave just said, "I like it a lot; yes, like it a lot, let's not mess around, let's make an album". So we just did an LP. The whole thing was done in three weeks.

-MM: Are you a big Tommy James fan?
LL: I remembered his singles, but I didn't know that one. Charlie always thought it would be a good song for a girl to do. He's never really heard a girl singing it and thought it would be a nice change. It's been one of his favourite pop songs for a long time. I liked the song so I did it.

-MM: Who did you start out doing the back up for?
LL: Oh, lots of people, no big name people. He was a singer who wrote songs, his name is Bobby Henry. I think he's just signed a contract with A & M Records in England.

-RG: Launching into the future what are your aspirations for personal growth?
LL: I think that it seems to be going around in phases. I just sort of learn a lot and then I discover that I really don't know so much, and then I start learning again. Then I realize that I don't know so much, and then I start again... (giddy) ...I've been doing this for hundreds of years. Really, but, it's the only way to enjoy these sort of games, really. I mean, if you know all the rules you know it becomes really boring. I'm just looking forward to starting all over again.

-MM: Is it your band?
LL: The people in my band? No, it's not really a permanent thing, I was just saying when I get back to London I have to find a new band. But, the rhythm guitarist, Les, will stay with me. It's only because they are already another band; they work with a guitarist who sings, and they all write songs. They're all very creative people and they all want to do their own project. It's not that I'm dissatisfied. I think they're great. They work under the name of The Sinceros. It's a brand new band. I expect you'll be hearing something from them in the new year.

-MM: I love your skirt.
LL: Oh, thank you. Do you like this one too? (display of quilted black sheen under-skirt). It's not as colourful, but I like it a lot.

-MM: No, it's not as colorful. It's good, I like the texture to it.
LL: The texture is better... thank you.

-MM: I recently enjoyed your show, you're very expressive.
LL: Oh, great! I didn't know whether you had been, if you had seen the show or not.

-MM: Oh yeah, we were there a couple of nights ago. I found it very difficult to understand any of your lyrics, which I'm not certain whether it mattered a great deal, in a sense. I watched your face.
LL: Do yo think it's because I didn't speak very clearly?

-MM: I couldn't figure it out. I found the, ah, Rachel Sweet, I found I could understand her words. I have no idea why. It could be your music was a bit more frenzied or something. It didn't bother me because I figured I would get it another time, maybe tonight.
LL: I hoped that you could hear the words, ya, it disturbs me if you can't hear the words. Maybe we don't just speak clear enough. Or maybe the sound, the balance, the voice wasn't up enough.

MM: Have you seen Lindsay Kemp at all?
LL: No, I haven't. I've only sort of been cutting across his path for so long, but we've never actually met. I'd like to meet him.

MM: I'm sure you'd enjoy the meeting if you did. He came to Toronto for almost, I would say two months, in a small theatre with his troupe. He put on two different shows. It was stunning. It was absolutely stunning. I'm sure it was the most interesting thing that happened in Toronto last year.
LL: Ya, I'd like to see them. I just really don't see very much; and I don't listen to very much.

-MM: He's very unusual. If you ever see a picture of his face, that's what happened to me. I saw a picture of his face, just looked at him, and I thought, I mean, I don't go out much either. But I had to check this guy out. It was incredible. I mean what I'm tying this into, his face, his face, what he does is he hardly ever moves at all. He'll come on stage and he'll, one of his parts he's playing a divine, sort of an old temptress gone totally down, y'know. He's a little man, and he comes on. It's a cafe scene where there are all these attractive young men and women he comes on with all these feathers. He walks really slowly and he hardly ever moves. That seems to be part of his thing, and he can shimmer his eyes. He just moved his face like this... How precisely and how slowly he moves himself! You have to watch him. When I was watching you a couple of nights ago I thought that I caught the same sort of effect. What you were doing with your face didn't seem contrived, it seemed like an expression, a very unusual expression.
LL: No, I've never really seen what I look like. It just happens with the song really.

-MM: It's very captivating though. I'm glad you were there, I think I could have got lost in the music due to this fact that I couldn't pick out all the lyrics and so on, but you can never tell why that happens.
LL: Well, good, good. I wish you could hear the lyrics because, as I was saying, there's not many facts in the songs. Every line, I hope, describes a little bit more of the picture. So that if you can't really hear all of the lines you don't get a very clear idea of the picture of the song. That's the only reason why it disturbs me. It just means that you've got less clues to work on, as to what the whole picture is about.

-MM: I might have been distracted by your appearance as well.
LL: Ya, I suppose. I have seen some very strange pictures of me.

-MM: Strange is often enchanting.
LL: Ya. That's enough talking about me. I don't want to talk about me anymore.

-MM: That's fair enough. I love the texture of your voice, both in speech and in song. How's the working situation? Does it matter?
LL: It does, working with the Stiff. Everybody seems to be really responsible for the job that they have to do. Everybody works efficiently right down the line to every person in the road crew, y'know, everybody works as efficiently as possible. It really makes your job as pleasant as it can be. There's nothing like having the feeling that everybody is really interested in what they're doing. It's wonderful to be in that position where people seem to care about their jobs, especially from the technicians and road crew. It's just such a relief, from, you know, slack attitudes I've discovered with other outfits.

-MM: But you're going to be going out and working with them? Charlie told us he was hoping to...
LL: Ya, now that we've done this big show with everybody involved, then we're all going to be going out more or less on our own. We won't have maybe as big a road crew, we hope to have as efficient. I think it's important to vary it in a way that allows me to have some silence and some quiet time so that I can just live apart from performing. I really have to perform a lot, I really do, and I'm never bored with it. It's the thing that I probably most like doing. Writing songs is exciting but it's not always fun. It's sometimes really horrendous. I really enjoy playing live, if I did that all the time I probably wouldn't write as many songs. I know a lot of people say they write a lot of songs on the road. I don't think I can do that.

-MM: When you do your own show will it be just straight music or will it become more theatrical?
LL: I don't know. It's interesting, the idea that I've got more time. It's something I'm going to have to think about, really. Les has been involved in theatre shows, and Ron the bass player, but they are mainly musicians.

-MM: Are you planning a trip to Canada?
LL: I don't know, but I'd like to go. I know that we're planning a tour of England in February. We've already done just recently, about three weeks ago, the Rail Tour. Everybody wants us to come back so we're gonna do some things in February. We'll probably come over eventually.

An ominous squeak at the door revealed Stiff president, Dave Robinson.

-RG: Dave, is there any possibility that you may be clear for a few moments to talk about your projections?
DR: I'd leave it out if I was you. My future is tonight (the last night of the New York shows). We'll hang around if you like. I'll just finish three or four or five phone calls. You never know, the world changes every few minutes.

Our conversation with Dave Robinson was aired in a nationally broadcast CBC Stiff special on the Great Canadian Goldrush, Sunday night April 29/79. Thanks to all the Stiffs of 78 and Janine Safer of A.R.S.E. Management for their wonderful hospitality. Be Stiff.