Outline (Norwich/UK; Nov 2013)

Lene Lovich: A Hit Ms That Refuses To Fit. Lene Lovich, five foot nothing of old lace, obscure ancestry and pigtails, is what in old showbiz parlance they call a trouper. She can take the strain. That was the beginning of Paul Rambali's article on the iconic singer from the NME back in 1979, and how right he was, in both respects. Nowadays, performers believe they're making a statement by getting near naked. Read: Miley Cyrus. Darling, anyone can take their clothes off and stick their tongue out. While Lady Gaga’s outfit of raw meat perhaps swayed towards the more original, it also smacked of shock tactics. It might be said that it's impossible to be different, to be original now. But in 1979, Lene was. She subverted a traditionally male-controlled industry and controlled it herself. And what about Paul Rambali's remark that she could take the strain? Thirty-four years later, with a string of invitations and dates ahead of her, you can decide for yourself, as she plays in Norwich this month. 

Lene, thank you so much for your time today. We're an independent magazine, so we really do appreciate it.

L: Yeah, I know the magazine, it's everywhere! Brilliant!

So obviously we're doing this interview ahead of your Norwich Arts Centre gig this month. A lot of people won't know Norwich is something of a homecoming gig for you now, isn't it?

L: Well, it's a very familiar place for me. Both my daughters went to Art School in Norwich so I spend a lot of time here. Yeah, I'm very familiar with it; Anglia Square is almost the centre of my universe.

[Laughs] Now that's a pull quote!

L: [Laughs] And I'm very proud to say that!

What is it about the Square that lights up your world so much?!

L: Oh, well… it's a very easy place to be. There's no pressure. There's everything you need, pretty much. It's cheap... it's just a wonderful place! I often go to the Hollywood Cinema. I went there recently to see The Lone Ranger, which was wonderful.

Very good. And did you see the Alan Partridge Premiere?

L: No, I'm gutted; no, not there. But I have lots of strange cosmic connections with Norfolk. My mother's from Yorkshire, but her maiden name is Norfolk, which is quite bizarre.

There is a sort of magnetism about the county, it seems.

L: No, but maybe we don't want too many people to know about it because it's good as it is. We don't want too many aliens arriving.

But Lene, you've had many homes. I was thinking about your initial switch from Detroit to Hull when you were young. I mean, East Yorkshire - maybe it's just that Detroit seems exotic just by rights that it's in the US --

L: It was also dangerous. Yes, it sounds more exotic but it was really a hard place to be, especially at that time and now - well, it's come full circle because it did have an amazing recovery after the riots that were happening when I was there, and now it's a very strange place to be. The whole centre of Detroit has gone into decay. I don't know enough about it because I haven't been there in a while, but you know the whole prosperous and extravagant shops in the central area of Detroit has completely gone away now, from what I hear. It's almost gone back to sort of medieval times with people setting up farms… I know it sounds bizarre; maybe you better check these facts! It's just I can't believe it! It was a very big place to be, very posh, very extravagant, wealthy and just… just crumbled. So big cities everywhere, take note: it can happen. It happened to Rome, so…

But Hull - maybe Hull never had any grace to fall from - it's quite a down to earth place, isn't it? Was it a bit of a culture shock?

L: It was a welcome shock. It was a welcome shock because as I said, Detroit was a very troubled place and also my family was… was very messed up. Basically my mother ran away from my father, who had lots of problems, you know, mentally and aggressively, in his attitude towards everybody. Oh, this is like a novel, so I won't go into detail, but it was a great escape for me. I didn't really mind where I was going, I was just glad to be getting away. As long as I was with my mother and my brother and sisters. We all kind of escaped and went to Hull, which was great.

But as you came of age, you moved to London, to art school, didn't you?

L: I moved to London, because after a while, as you grow up and become a teenager you want your own identity. When you're little, I think you want to be the same as everybody else because little children move in their own personal groups and they like to be together, and if you're the odd one out, it's very noticeable. I was the odd one out because as I grew, I realised my visions and my ideas were different to everybody else. You soon learn that in order to survive in a very small world, you have to suppress your ideas… but they were just put on hold and I thought, 'Well, one day. I don't want to get beaten up, or be more of an outsider than I already am.' I think every school has their Wednesday Addams, and that was me. Completely alien to everybody else, maybe because of my accent. It wasn't a very big accent because my mother's English and my father's family's got its roots in Yugoslavia. But I was different and I thought, 'I've got to get to a bigger place where I won't be so unusual. Then maybe I can make some more friends and be in a place where I can express my creative ideas.' But it was a fun place; I don't want to paint a picture that it was dismal because it was the start of rock music being a band thing. Really, more before the 60s and 70s it was more about individual artists and then with the Beatles and the Mersey Sound, it became a band thing.

Musically, it's accepted that you were part of the post-punk and new wave artforms. You, as a generation, were making the rules up for yourselves, you didn't have a lot to guide you. What were you taking inspiration from?

L: Well I had a whole, huge bank of ideas in my head that I'd been saving up, you know, so I'd been gathering information that inspired me for a long time. I was a huge Jimi Hendrix fan… before he was famous. He actually made a stop in Hull; he was on tour with a load of other people and I couldn't afford to get into the show. They probably wouldn't have let me in anyway because I was just a teenager and you had to be a certain age to get into these places, but I walked all the way into the centre of town just to try and listen to the music. He was a huge influence on me; very new and expressive. I loved the whole psychedelic thing. I'm now friends with Arthur Brown, who was very important in that whole time of music and I found that all very inspiring.

The individuality in the way that you expressed yourself, how you presented and styled yourself has been widely celebrated. Coming from an art school background, I imagine it was part of the whole package for you - -

L: Well actually, art school… I went to do sculpture eventually in London at a place that's now called Central St Martins - it was Central School of Art when I was there - and I was actually extremely disappointed because there was a fashion in sculpture at the time, which was abstract, big welded, sometimes colourful items and it was a disappointingly small world where you had to do work like the tutors in order to get on. I went along with it for a certain amount of time but then me and  a few other people in my year rebelled in our third year and we did exactly what we wanted to do, which was great fun. We didn't get any thanks for it though! [Laughs] Because we'd been there so long they had to give us a pass, but that's all it was; we didn't get a good mark, I'm afraid, but it was great fun to release proper creativity. So I just saw clothes and making music and art all part of the whole way of expression. It's very important and it's not hurting anyone, so why not.

I was thinking, it must have taken some balls to assert yourself in the music industry at the time, especially doing something that wasn't pre-prescribed by commercialism. I think it then took even bigger balls to make the decision to be a mother and take time to raise your family. They're two very distinct roles, aren't they?

L: Yes, but for me it happened very naturally. I came to a point where I'd been to a lot of places in the world, I'd stayed up all night a lot of times, been to a lot of clubs, did loads of shows and you know, I think I was ready for a change. And for me, it was difficult because I wasn't mainstream and I didn't have records, apart from a couple, so it was hard to make a living. I just felt it was more important for me to be a mother and be there for my family, because maybe I didn't have such a good family life for myself as a child, so I wanted to make it a good time for everybody.

The header of your press release says, "Retirement is over". And boy, are you going for it. It's been a really exciting time for you over the last couple of years, hasn't it? What was the turning point, the trigger for your revival?

L: I was asked to do a free jazz version of Kurt Weill's music and Jude Rawlins was the other vocalist in the performance. Now the performance was a bit strange to say the least; I don't think I'll repeat it! [Laughs] I love Kurt Weill's music but the combination of that and free jazz was, erm, not totally a happy one! I think it was a challenge. Both Jude and I bonded very closely in our efforts to make our voices heard and because of that, we found out that we liked each other and we had a lot of things that were very similar and likeable between the two of our characters. Afterwards he said, "You know, you really should be doing your own music", and I said, "Well yes, I'm pretty much ready to do that now because my children are grown up". He said, "Well, I know a lot of people and I'm sure we could form a band and do that". And I was just amazed that that could be done and in a way, I was very excited because we decided we'd do it all independently, that we wouldn't be a part of the music business, the established music business and we'd have a freedom to do what we want, when we want and that was all very exciting. It's amazing that the band's been together now over a year and we've already played abroad; we've got invitations to visit America next year -- Yeah, I saw; that's exciting -- Yeah, yeah, and I'm just so happy that people want to see and hear the music again.

It's been getting a great response too, I mean, the remastered 4-CD boxset sold out, didn't it?

L: It sold out in two days; we've got some hungry fans out there so we might have to expand the issue of it. We were just testing the response and it's really good. And we've had a few plays on radio, which is really good. Mainly 'Lucky Number' of course, because that's the song most people know, and it sounds great.

So when you were remastering the albums, because you've presumably had some space from the music, it must have been a real joy to actually go through that process again and revisit them. It must have been great…

L: Yes, it was wonderful because I really hadn't listened to the old albums at all, not for many years and I thought, 'There's a real evolution here, one album after another; they're going somewhere'. And what I see now is that we're just a continuation of that. We're mainly doing the older material now but it's just a stepping stone to the next stage.

Do you have an interest in writing new material then?

L: Oh yes; I'm inspired because now our band is really solid and very, very uplifting in their enthusiasm and their musicianship as well. We have some very talented musicians in the band, all who have done things in the past and now who have come together to do this… as well as continuing their own projects. But this band is wonderful; it's given me the encouragement to want to write again.

That's fantastic, really exciting. I wanted to ask a little bit about your performance as guest vocalist on the special evening celebrating Yoko Ono and John Lennon's 'Double Fantasy' album. You were invited as part of an incredible line-up; Patti Smith, Peaches… that must've been a great night?

L: That was a completely one-off, wonderful experience! I didn't know until fairly recently that John Lennon had an interest in my music and that's why I was invited. He even said this on American TV when he was asked what he was listening to. I mean, this is obviously going back quite a few years, but I felt very special that I was remembered and when Yoko put the show together, I was invited and that made me feel really good because you don't always get good criticism from the music business, but what is more important is when you get the seal of approval from people you really admire. It was an amazing, special night and the audience were obviously 100% John Lennon and Yoko Ono fans, so every song from that 'Double Fantasy' album meant something to them. There were people in tears in the audience because there was special footage of John Lennon singing a song to Yoko that hadn't been seen before, so yeah, it was really amazing. I wish I could do it again but I think it was just one of those one-off things.

Yeah, what a great thing to be part of. I noticed on Facebook that you said if anyone's in the US and can house a band of about 10 people, or something, "invite us in!" It must really take you back to the early days of touring in the way that it's kind of up in the air - it must be invigorating though?

L: Yeah, it is because I look back and it's those early days when I was just discovering how to do stuff, finding your way - it's really not so much a comeback as starting over. I just feel that this is the way to be, that we have to be independent and closely connected to our audience. I just feel that's the right way for us to be. I loved doing the 'Double Fantasy' show at the Festival Hall, but it really wasn't part of my world. It was great to be part of that established music business world, but discovering and finding your own way is… it's exciting.

Quasi-Substitute (US; 1980)

I took a number to interview Lene Lovich in the Stiff Records lounge (which is actually just a video room). It was number 8. When my number was called I was told I had 15 minutes to find out all about the unique character of Lene. There she sat in an outfit that looked like it had been bought out of the black remnant section in an old-ladies fabric store. Both she and Les (boyfriend, songwriter, guitarist) were present for the interrogation, but Les let Lene do all the talking. I refrained from asking him how much trouble it is to maintain a perfectly shaved head and, instead, asked Lene about her move from Detroit to Europe, where all her unusual careers got underway.

L: I went to Europe when I was 13. I came over to go to school. It wasn't until a bit later that I started to get involved with music... (In this period Lene sold hot dogs, became a bingo caller, sought out Salvador Dali, belly danced, and screamed for horror movies.)... I first tried to play the violin and it was very difficult, because I didn't have proper lessons. It sounds terrible when you first learn how to play, but I quite enjoyed it. Nobody else enjoyed it very much. Les tried to teach me to play the guitar, but that was no fun at all. Eventually I found the sax. I was offered a job in a theatre show but only under the condition I could play the saxophone, so I learned really quick.

Wasn't it through a sax gig you came in contact with the Stiff label?

L: It was through a DJ named Charlie Gillett. He's known Dave Robinson (Stiff founder) for quite some time. I originally went to Charlie because I was looking for a job as a sax player. I was very shy about my voice at the time. People are always looking for a new Bee Gees or new Beatles. For something different it's a bit difficult at first. Charlie, for the first time, was someone that had shown interest in us. Les and I had just found enough confidence to write our own songs. I played Charlie something that we had just started. He gave us a lot of confidence and said he knew just where we should be, on the Stiff label, and he arranged for us to come and meet Dave. Dave had seen us before when we were playing with other bands. We walked in at the right time because Stiff had just lost a couple of their artists and were actually looking for artists to sign up. They left us pretty much on our own. It wasn't until we had a single out that it was a success. Stiff put out five albums on the same day. When it came around to releasing singles they wanted to make it a bit special, so first Mickey Jupp had one out, Eric had one, and then Rachel. I was the last one in line and had to wait six months. It was lucky. ("Lucky Number", to be more specific.) I don't think it could in any other country but this one (England). This country is very open-minded. When you look at the charts there's all kinds of things on them, from really stupid records to humourous ones, along with middle of the road.

How do you feel about your American market?

L: I think we're still considered very underground. We don't get any airplay. They're very conservative on the media scene. The DJs that I met would quite like to play our songs. They probably do to some extent. It's real diffcult because they think we're from another planet.

Where did you get that musical style?

L: We never really had much connection with traditional rock and roll. Our musical influences come in a roundabout way. In fact, from any conventional link, it would be more from black music - Motown, because that's what I heard mostly. The things that influenced me more were our jobs in the theatre.

Do you take the things that you did in the theatre and put them to music?

L: No, not really. I think everything that we do comes natural to us. I suppose you learn from your experiences and pick up things... but what goes in and what comes out has an effect, but sublimely, not so much calculatively.

Would that hold true for "Angels", the song about encountering the Hell's Angels while filming Cha Cha?

L: Ah yes but that song is not only about the Hell's Angels. It's for anyone that likes to live dangerously. If I'm actually singing about something that has happened to me, it's usually because... well, it's NOT because I want to re-create the history of it, but because it's in my head and it's stayed there awhile. Not the event, the reactions from the event.

You also incorporate lots of unusual vocal sounds in your songs - from the horror screaming to a nightingale. How are these brought in?

L: It's whatever's needed at the moment. It's probably because I've had no musical training, I sort of use whatever is effective at the time. I think that certain frequencies can help generate a certain atmosphere, so sometimes I sing very high, not so necessarily words, but sounds, like vowel sounds. If I think it needs some sort of penetration, then I'll put a scream in. Maybe to sing very low can help to influence the person listening and make them understand more the mood of the song.

It seems that the mood you create on the album Flex is one specific one compared to all the diversity that was on Stateless. The funk-pop-synthesized selections that were on your first album seem to have disappeared in the composition of Flex.

L: I think the problem is that we should be making more LPs. People tend to see each album as being specific... "You've changed directions." What it really means is, that we're capable of making many kinds of music. I think the more albums that we do, the more apparent that will become.

The jacket is a real interesting piece of art on the idea of movement.

L: I always hoped that people would be able to move with our music. Some songs are definitely up-tempo. And we see when we perform that certain songs make people jump up and down und others don't. It's interesting to watch from the stage how people react physically from your songs.

The idea of flex seems so flowing, whereas people are high energy in concert. It seem to be a different type of movement.

L: I think it's a different feeling from the moment that you watch it. You miss a lot because it all happens so quickly. I've always been fascinated by these nature films that watch flowers open very slowly. And watching insects move.

Did you make up any of those definitions of "flex" on the album?

L: No, they were all from the dictionary or the thesaurus. I was a bit sad that the electrical connotations of "flex" were left off. Flex also means... (looks around, picks up the cord to the cassette recorder) Like this here, it could be called a flex. It means insulated wire.

Yeah, that would put together what you were saying about the high energy dancing and the term "flex". Besides music and movement you're also doing a lot with video. Do you think music is ready for the visual media?

L: I can see very much in my mind pictures when I'm writing songs. I'd like to do about three videos for each song. What I'm frightened of is limiting a song by putting visuals to it. I like it when people come up to me and say, "Oh you know what that song's about, that's about..." and it's totally different from what I had in mind. I find it intruiging and I'd like to encourage people to use their own minds.

One thing that always comes out in a video is that you're always in a wedding dress.

L: I'm NOT always in a wedding dress. Just recently. I wanted to try a different color. I usually wear dark colors and I'd be very happy wearing dark colors, but I thought, "You should change". I'd be very happy with black but that's because the most interesting clothes I've seen happen to be black. Also I like lace a lot, but that's only because I like the different pictures, and the different textures you can build up by the layers. It's just a lot of net curtains. I suppose the fact I wear a veil makes it a wedding dress. But then I have the other extreme. I like to dress in a tailored way, like the American cover of my first album.

You said in a documentary that you feel most of the world laughs at you. Tell me how YOU see the world.

L: I just think that personal freedom is very important. It disturbs me to see young people very conservative. I like to encourage people to be creative. If the Martians ever landed here they would be freaked out totally. Just look at a tree, what kind of thing is that? The world is a very wonderful and strange place and I hope that people won't try and make it very small. I think that's actually happening in music. In the future there won't be so many superstars. There will be a lot more alternatives. I like the idea of that, it's a healthy idea.

I think that you've proved it's possible!!

L: YEAH!!!!